Nov
14
2007
Sickeningly Politically Correct: Not Honoring Veterans Day in School?
Posted by ThirstyJon in Uncategorized, tags: Education, Politically Correct, VeteransWhy in the world wouldn’t an American Public School honor Veterans on Veterans Day?
Nelson Guirado over at PajamasMedia.com has some concerns:
“I’d like to implore parents not to take anything for granted. Chances are that if your child goes to public school, you’re going to have to teach him patriotic stuff yourself. Increasingly, public school seems to be aimed at instilling a sense of grievance.” [Read More]
Quote from: http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/11/pc_elementary_american_public.php
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In my house we celebrated Veteran’s day the way we always do. I wisecracked that all those loser non-veterans should have to buy we veterans presents on Veteran’s day, the family politely chuckled (again), and then we went to DaVinci’s restaurant for pasta. It was a good day.
My kids went to public schools – my son is a senior. When they were younger they were given a good grounding in what the day was all about, and as they got older there was usually an assignment about military issues or history associated with the day. I think most schools are doing Ok with the holiday.
Do you have some link to a news report that says different?
C
Hmm! Gone are the days when we would start the week off with prayer and the National Anthem. God forbid we’d do that now for fear of offending anyone.
Last week, the school I work at had a wonderful ceremony in honor of our Canadian veterans. 4 of them visited with the students, telling them stories about how they lived through the war, how they survived. To close the week off, we had presentations on the part of the students, delegates from each class bringing a hand-made wreath. Poems were read – “In Flanders Field”, “Why I am wearing a poppy”. Tap was also played. What a great opportunity to learn that it is (or at least was then) very patriotic of one to accept the responsibility to defend our most valued liberties. Lest we forget!
Response to Casper:
There was a link to a story, it was just hard to notice because it just said “read more” and wasn’t placed very well.
I have improved the post to make the link more obvious.
I make no claim that all (or even most) schools fail to honor Veterans on Veterans Day. I did find the article by Nelson Guirado to be interesting.
I am glad your children learned about veterans day and am delighted to hear that you served your country in this way.
ThirstyJon
Response to Lynn G.:
Those days can come again you know!
Freedom flows from the internal to the external. If we bring up children who know freedom on the inside, they will stand against all threats. Then their patriotism will not be blind and emotional, but based on content and conviction.
Let’s work for that!
ThirstyJon
That day will come upon His return. Can’t wait!!
It is true that the values we inculcate in our kids eventually reflect into the world they side with every day. Our eldest son especially makes us very proud in that sense. So do the 2 others. Train up a child in the way he should go, he will never depart from it… Salutations!
Response to Lyne G:
Hello again!
I believe the ultimate fulfillment will be upon Christ’s return, but I also believe that things can always get better now! There is always hope.
Our destiny will be determined in part by our choices and our prayers!
ThirstyJon
In my house we sometimes talked about the history of Veterans’ day. Do you know why it is remembered on the 11th day of the 11th month?
Casper:
That was the day “the war to end all wars” ended.
I am delighted to hear about the discussion at your house. It is very encouraging.
ThirstyJon
I don’t think you (or any Hawk) would like the discussion at my house.
It’s about the young men that died on the morning of 11/11/18. The negotiations were done earlier, everyone knew that the end of the war was at 11:00 am. But a lot of guys were ordered “over the top” that morning. They went, and they were machine gunned, for nothing. Literally, absolutely indefensibly for NOTHING.
War is nothing but old men talking and young men dying. Nowadays it’s also about rich men talking and poor men dying. But in my house the lesson is that decisions matter, words and votes and orders have consequences.
But what do I know, I’m just a veteran.
Casper,
Those men dying is a great tragedy and it is good for us to think about it and consider it and work hard to avoid similar tragedies.
War can indeed by “old men talking and young men dying.” It can also be a heroic struggle for something that is good.
ThirstyJon
Ya, a “heroic struggle”,,,
Chickenhawks always say stuff like that.
Casper,
So… Do you not believe it is possible for there to be such a heroic struggle? Or are you content with labeling?
ThirstyJon
Sure. When people bravely defend against an aggressor, that is heroic. When a fireman gets a kid out of a burning building, that’s heroic.
In my opinion, WWII was a heroic struggle. Hitler invaded Poland, took over all of Europe, and defeating him and returning the nations of Europe to governments of their own choosing was valiant and righteous and a heroic struggle.
Sending poor kis to aggressively invade random countries for murky reasons and lies is not heroic.
Labels,,, Interesting. Are you saying the label doesn’t fit? Let’s define:
“”Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk; sometimes designated after a person’s name by [c.h.]) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, but has never personally been in a war, especially if that person actively avoided military service when of draft age.”"
So,,,?
Oooh, there’s more:
The term is meant to indicate that the person in question is cowardly or hypocritical for personally avoiding combat in the past while advocating that others go to war in the present. Generally, the implication is that “chickenhawks” lack the experience, judgment, or moral standing to make decisions about going to war.
Casper,
Iraq was not random and the reasons were not murky. I’ve already explained the reasons given and why I believed them. From what I can see it was strategic and justified.
It is also nice to see that by your definition of your label I do not fit your label after all.
ThirstyJon
You’re a commentator, you avoided combat and service, and now you’re Oh so willing to send others – sounds textbook to me.
Casper,
Well… I still don’t accept your label and it doesn’t fit; and you aren’t reading what I write if you think “Oh So Willing” is a good description of my position. How about “willing with grief” or “willing to back the President’s decision” etc.
Of course, you can think about me whatever you like. It won’t be the first time in my life that someone has decided I’m something that I am not. It hasn’t killed me yet.
ThirstyJon
Your president’s decision was wrong. Millions of us knew it ahead of time and protested and tried to be heard. we were ignored.
It’s almost your turn to be ignored.
Hello Casper,
I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that you are going to ignore me? Are you referring to the upcoming elections? (hoping that the voters will “ignore” my point of view?) I am genuinely unsure of what you are talking about.
Of course you have a right to your opinion about the American President’s decision. I disagree with you opinion, but we have both survived disagreement before.
ThirstyJon
Yes, you and I have survived your presidents tragic, misguided, hubristic, bloodthirsty decision. How this man can claim to follow the prince of peace and still do what he’s done – and you can support him, is beyond me. I will pray for you- but I’m not a good enough christian to pray for him. I wish I could be.
You and I have survived, close to a million people have not. God help us all.
The ignored thing? In 2000, my side made up a slight majority of the polls, but for a lot of other reasons, your guy got the job. He and his party and his followers have ignored the other half of the country for a long time. GWB has made it clear, he is not a republican president of the USA, he’s the president of the Republicans of the USA, and everyone else can go to h,,,
Enough’s enough, and the people have had enough. Conservatism will lose, the Republican party will lose, and your point of view will be ignored as ours has been. And it’s high time.
Look at them – look at their faces – read their names. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/
Well Casper, of course people can choose to ignore what I say. I’ll be fine.
Of course I still have to say it.
I hear the feeling in what you are saying, but I am not persuaded. To pull out of Iraq now would be a great tragedy of our time with consequences that will last for decades or longer. I hope Americans take a hard look at this before making any huge mistakes in the next couple of elections.
If we “lose” in Iraq it will be because we quit. We are already winning. Since I am not needing any votes I can say “stay the course.” It is really sad that our President, the President of the United States of America, had to stop saying that because people were discouraged.
Stay the course. Maintain our Victory.
ThirstyJon
You’ll never be persuaded, you can’t be persuaded. Bush just caught in another lie, you’re not persuaded. Scotty McClellan comes right out and says the administration sent him to the podium with lies, somebody parses a few words and you are not persuaded. You’ve called for a healing of the conservative/liberal divide , but your hero Huckabee is exposed as a man who hated Clinton so much he set a rapist free to rape again just becuase the rape victim was Clinton’s cousin – and still you are not persuaded.
~~~~~~
“Maintain our victory”?? Here’s your victory – violence is down because the ethnic cleansing is nearly complete. Most of the Sunnis in the Shia neighborhoods are gone or dead, and most of the Shi’ites in the Sunni neighborhoods are gone or dead. There’s nobody handy to kill anymore, so violence is down. Of course you people will call this a “Victory”.
~~~~~~~
Any government set up under US occupation will be viewed by the population as a Vichy/Quisling puppet of the US, and will be overtaken from within or overthrown the day the last US Marine leaves. 1000 more KIA and 5000 more WIA won’t change that. We need to get out and let it happen.
~~~~~~
Enough – here’s more proof: http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-na-militpoll7dec07,0,4843202.story?coll=la-home-center
“”Bush loses ground with military families”"
~~~~~~~~
And unless you have some stripes on your shoulder, or a DD-214, or a purple heart – those of us who’ve served would arreciate it if you’d knock off the “Our Victory” crap. The only thing you’ve done is run your mouth.
Casper,
You don’t know that I will never be persuaded. I don’t know that you will never be persuaded. It appears that you are not going to be happy unless I agree with you. That doesn’t appear like it is going to happen any time soon.
I have to follow my conscience. I don’t really have an option.
Politicians and Pundits claim others are lying all the time. Sometimes I feel that others are lying, but I try not to say that. Especially if I don’t know the person. I might be mistaken about them, and lying is a very serious accusation. You have not persuaded me that Bush is lying. You are free to keep trying.
As far as your trying to silence me because of how you feel about my military credentials I have an answer for you: NO. I will not stop thinking and I will not stop sharing my thoughts. I could get offended that you keep bringing it up (even though you do not know me or my life story), but I am trying to avoid letting this get personal.
I do not ask you to stop thinking or sharing your thoughts. Carry on! Please.
I invite you to continue sharing your thoughts with great conviction and force. Please.
I encourage you to avoid using who-you-think-I-am as your argument.
I wish I could have found reasonable discussion before the war in Iraq. I could not. I even walked up to the protesters in my home town to ask them questions. I was informed that “Bush is an idiot” and “he is ruining this country.”
I looked. I listened. I made a decision to support the President of the United States on his decision (backed by congress). I heard many good arguments for the war. I had questions but found no useful discussion to answer my questions.
Now we are in it. I can’t support starting and then backing out.
I have to continue supporting our President and praying for resolution.
I wonder, will you be persuaded if things go well in Iraq? I wonder.
If we yank ourselves out now, those opposed will appear to be right (because of the consequences of leaving). They will appear to be right, yet their decision will be the cause of the failure!
Carry on!
ThirstyJon
I didn’t suggest that you should be silent. You’re free to say whatever misguided trope you wish to type. This is america (barely these last few years) so you can say anything you want.
I just suggested (angrily I know, ’cause this is getting old. I hear it from every chickenhawk I talk to) that you knock off the “Our Victory” language. It’s like hiring a contractor, and then telling your friends “We built this house last year”. No – Harrison Construction Inc. built a house, you wrote a check. Or like watching a football game and screaming “We scored!”. No – The Dallas Cowboys scored – you ate a Cheeto. Acting like you’re part of the team, when you’re not, is kinda disrespectful to the team. If you’d been a soldier, or at least talked to a couple, you might’ve known that.
There’s nothing to debate about whether your hero Bush is a liar. We have video of Bush saying just a couple months ago “Iran is building a bomb”, and now we have proof that earlier than that he was told definitively “Iran is not building a bomb”. So when he said “Iran is building,,,” He was lying, we know he was lying, it’s proven he was lying. There’s nothing to debate.
You’ve been played, a lot of people have, and I’m probably sorrier about that than you’ll ever be. Now you’re too invested to admit it. It’s hard to admit that you’ve been wrong about such a big issue for so long. You said it yourself -
“”If we yank ourselves out now, those opposed will appear to be right”
So you could never support a withdrawal becuase it may prove that you pres was wrong. You’d rather go on with the madness forever, certain that “we’re turning the corner” like the last 4 years. Rumsfeld said “6 days, 6 weeks, certainly not 6 months” 4 years ago. Enough is enough.
Strange days. Don’t worry, it’s almost over. Just another year. If we can stop your chimp from destroying the world for just 13 more months it’ll be Ok.
Hello Casper,
I don’t have the luxury of not seeing myself as a part of the team.
I vote, I pray, I am an American. I cannot follow your suggestion, and I still do not accept your label.
It would be a violation of my conscience.
I have friends who have served in Iraq. I do talk to them. I honor them and value their service.
As far as your charge that George Bush lied about Iran. I don’t see it. You can read the current National Intelligence Estimate on Iran for yourself. (http://freedomthirst.com/documents/nie-iran-nov2007.pdf) Make sure you note that even the Estimate acknowledges that they are speaking of their current view and the authors specifically compare it to how it differs from what they thought in 2005. (Which comes after 2003, in case you didn’t notice.) The document also states that it takes several months to prepare such an estimate.
Even then, they don’t claim at all that Iran does not have the intention of restarting (or has not already restarted) their Nuclear Weapons Program, but instead they acknowledge such possibilities. They only assert that international pressure has an effect and that Iran has some pragmatism in their response. This does give significant hope that the Iran Nuclear Problem may be solvable without military intervention. I hope and pray for this.
Not only that but they talk of Iran having various nuclear weapons capabilities as soon as 2010-15. (That is not a long time from now!) They say it is unlikely but possible for Iran to have enough weapons grade material by 2009.
Where in all this do you see Bush lying? I don’t get it.
Regarding your quotation of me “If we yank ourselves out now…”: Read the rest of what I wrote: “They will appear to be right, yet their decision will be the cause of the failure!”
I am not confessing wrongness there. I am asserting that pulling out because we are allegedly “failing” will cause the failure itself. It could create a false appearance of Bush’s opponents having been accurate when in fact the opposite would be true!
What will you do if the situation in Iraq continues to improve and Victory continues to be solidified?
ThirstyJon
Victory,
Honestly – if Iraq can be stabilized, they can learn to live together in some form of reasonably civil society, and we can get our people out, I will obviously see this as a good thing in comparison to where we are today. However,,,
Your question is a little dishonest. It’s kind of like asking how I would feel about reconstructing a grade school that burned to the ground with half the students inside. Obviously you rebuild the school, you pick up the pieces and you try to make it better. But wouldn’t the best possibility be if the school hadn’t burned in the first place?
Your boy chose CHOSE to invade this country. Yes, a foolish congress voted to give him the authority, but he CHOSE to pull the trigger. I protested then and I’ve never stopped.
The numbers are in dispute, but at a minimum, several hundred thousand Iraqis are dead, millions are refugees, we’ve lost 3900 KIA, we’re close to 30000 WIA, we’re spending 2 Trillion dollars (that we don’t have). And now you’re asking me what I’ll do if “Victory continues to be solidified”. What will I do? I’ll be glad for a “not as bad as it could’ve been” result, and I’ll mourn for the loss of life, ours and theirs, ’cause this didn’t have to happen.
~~~~~~~~~~
You say – “”I don’t have the luxury of not seeing myself as a part of the team.”"
You can see yourself anyway you want. I occasionally see myself as a better guitarist than Ry Cooder, but that don’t make it so. You’re not serving, you’re not sharing the burden in any real way, your feckless leader started a war, gave you a tax cut and told you to go shopping. Go Team!
I still believe that it’s disrespectful to the people in country to try to equate blogging and voting and praying with running ops in full gear in 125F heat. But that’s just me, what do I know?
If you want to pretend that they’re almost the same thing I guess that’s your right.
~~~~~~~~~
Nice dodge on the lie, you really buy it? Again???
Hello Casper:
1) Of course I disagree with your comparison of the Iraq war to a burning school. If a school was full of hostages and their was a wacko inside that you believed had a bomb that could blow up the whole block, and you sent in the SWAT team… Well, that would be a better comparison. You could blame the SWAT team for any mistakes they made, but you could not blame them for those who died unnecessarily at the hands of the wacko. If it turned out the wacko did not have the bomb (or got rid of it before you came in) you would still have to say that you made the best decision you could with the info you had. Then, of course, you would work like mad to see if you could be more accurate about the Wacko with the bomb the next time.
~~~~~~~~~
2) I think you are making a big mistake trying to present my opinion as invalid because of what I did or did not do in military service. I am disappointed that you keep walking that trail.
You said:
I don’t make any claim that those things are equivalent to laying down one’s life in service for others, be that militarily or otherwise. However, it is the moral obligation of all Americans to learn, think, and vote. I have to think, speak and vote. I do not have a choice. It is a duty.
I will not be intimidated by what you are saying. I honor all those who serve in the military, but it is not the only way one can serve one’s country. All people living in a free society where they can vote are responsible to participate in the discussion.
Casper. You really should let that one go. You have not judged me correctly. I take the responsibility of the cost of war very seriously. I have spent much time meditating on how much I do not know what it is like to be in battle. I have done my best. You won’t find many people who have done what I have done in an attempt to have sober judgment in the matter of war.
Let it go Casper. Let it go. Stick to the reasons. Believe it or not, although I don’t usually agree, I do listen. I feel like I have to sift through personal attacks and spend my energy not getting mad instead of trying to see if there is a valid point that I haven’t considered in the midst of your presentation.
I do think it is relevant for those who are veterans of war to remind the rest of us, describe to the rest of us, and even warn the rest of us of the horrors of war. Write books. Make movies. Comment on blogs you disagree with.
But stop making a personal judgment of me that you are not qualified to make. I remind you again Casper – You do not know me!
~~~~~~~~~
3) “Nice dodge on the lie…” Simply put, you have not shown me that George W. Bush is lying. I investigated what you said and found other possible explanations for what you have interpreted as lying. Plus, I don’t see any good motive for Bush to lie about Iran.
My observation is that in politics each side is always accusing the other of lying. I have felt like making charges of lying myself. I avoid it. I like to stick to reasons as best as I can.
Sincerely,
ThirstyJon
I guess my question would be How much time and blood and treasure have we spent on that quagmire in Bosnia?
There is really no difference in my estimation between what your guy says and my guy. The only difference is that I served under LBJ. Jimmy Carter Ronald Reagan George HW Bush and Bill Clinton.
As they were all Commander in Chief I did as I was told. Did I agree with all of their Campaigns? No!! Did I do my sworn Duty? Yes. Voltaire once said that Although I may Disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.
I have never agreed with those who dismembered and disrespected the Military. And I am not one to needlessly waste American Lives. So While I believe That George Bush was not lying any more than Clinton Lied , I believe that both of them were acting on faulty Intelligence information both from CIA and State. The career Bureaucrats in both agencies are a den of Vipers .
1 – I believe that my analogy of the burning school is dead on, let me flesh it out for you. There’s a school. Your President claims to believe that the principal of the school has a bomb that he may use someday (I don’t think he really believed it, but he said he did, and that’s what counts). Inspectors go to the school and verify that there is no bomb. Your President claims that the bomb actually is there, the inspectors just didn’t look hard enough. He can clearly see this from his excellent vantage point 9,000 miles away.
Your President burns the school to the ground, to make sure nobody uses that bomb. Arson investigators comb through the ashes and confirm, there never was a bomb. Your President claims that bomb or no bomb, the burning was justified because the principal of the school punished the students unfairly, and we had to incinerate the students to protect them from the evil principal, and that he made the best decision that he could with the information he had at the time. Some will suggest that a fleeing teacher smuggled the 5 ton bomb out of the school in his shirt pocket.
Your President’s followers later will not countenance the possibility that any errors were ever made, and will busy themselves with selecting curtains for the new school and shouting down any who might suggest that something is amiss. There will no time for discussion of past wrongs, only plans of where to go from here.
2 – Once again: I am not arguing that your opinion is invalid because you didn’t serve in the military. I am objecting to your choice of words.
If you read a detailed account of a firefight in the Weekly Standard, and were later describing the event to a friend, would you say things like “The insurgents tried to come around OUR flank to the south, so WE fell back in a blocking maneuver…”? Would you? That would make it sound like you were there, like you personally were carrying a carbine and walking a patrol. This would be claiming credibility and heroism that is not yours. You weren’t there, you did nothing, you read a story in a magazine.
I believe that the generation that fought and won WWII can reasonably talk about “Our” victory in that conflict, because everybody, or very nearly everybody, chipped in and worked hard to make that happen. Taxes were raised to pay the costs of war. People recycled steel and copper and glass. Foods and fuel were rationed. There was a draft, and just about every family sent a young man to war. My Grandfather – my mom’s dad, was drafted though he had 5 children, and was stationed on a cruiser in the Pacific. They all contributed, and they could all righteously claim a part in the victory.
The American people have been asked to do nothing to support this latest conflict. No draft, no rations, no tax increases,,, We were actually told to support the nation by supporting the economy by going shopping. Those of us who are not part of the conflict have done nothing, and I don’t believe we should talk about “Our Victory”. If there is Victory, if there is glory, it belongs to the men and women who earn it in arms, not we soft souls who sit at keyboards and argue among ourselves. My $.02.
3 – I’ve proven Bush’s lies to you before. You won’t hear. Anne Sullivan did eventually stop screaming at Helen Keller and she found another way, and so I will try to find another way.
You have a lot of restraint, ThirstyJohn. The guy isn’t interested in a fair debate. He isn’t interested in a civil debate. It’s all about Bush is evil, and ThirstyJohn is *insert name here*, and conservativism is bad, blah, blah,blah. As far as trolling techniques go, this guy is even a few months out-of-fashion. I haven’t heard the “chickenhawk” bit in quite a while. *rolls eyes* I suppose when all your opponents can do is call you names it says a lot for their ideas.
Hi Russet,
I’ve been bugging John for a while, because the guy will never, EVER concede a point, but I don’t think I’ve actually done any real namecalling. Well, maybe the chickenhawk thing a little.
I’ve been no harder on conservatism than he’s been on Liberalism.
If my trolling techniques are out of date, that would be because I’m not a troll. I’m just a really frustrated individual from the other side of the fence.
I will agree – lot of restraint. Most would have just blocked me.
Oh Casper…
The inspectors did not verify that there was no WMDs before the war.
The U.S. did not burn Iraq to the ground. People who don’t care about killing civilians did. Are you saying that our military (yes “OUR” military) targeted civilians?
As far as honoring those who do the fighting on the ground: Amen, they get 2x, 10x, 50x, 100x, 1000x, 10,000x the honor that those of us arguing at keyboards get. But we are America together, soldiers and civilians. Soldiers get the credit (I claim none), we all get the benefit.
If American soldiers and our friends finish our victory in Iraq it is good for all of us.
I suggest that possibly the root of your issue is a mis-understanding of my motive. I say our based on a sense of responsibility and a desire to support and identify with, not out of any sense of wanting credit or glory. I am not carrying a rifle and sweating it out in the dessert. My life and limb are not directly at risk. I have friends whose life and limb are at risk. Me? I am safe in Australia.
I appreciate you clarifying (or changing?) what you mean. You are disturbed that I or anyone else would be deluded into thinking we get credit for what our soldiers do.
I expect no credit and make no claim to deserve any. To repeat myself, I do feel responsible to participate in the whole thing to the best of my ability. I am actually trying to do my part.
~~~~~~~~~
(See Casper, I learned at least one thing from you. The squiggly lines make a great divider.
)
I think it is good for you to point out how many of us are getting through this with minimal or no personal cost. We should all remember that and temper our discussion and any enthusiasm for war.
ThirstyJon
InRussetShadows,
Thanks for visiting Freedomthirst.com! Come again any time.
I am actually benefiting from the debate here! While I don’t agree with Casper (as can be plainly seen by both of our writing) I am glad to go through the challenge.
Why?
1) I always want to be effected by the gravity of war to the best of my ability having not been in one. I am patriotic, but I don’t ever want my “feelings” of patriotism to cloud my judgment. Patient debate with Casper (who for some reason does keep coming back) helps me stay sober.
2) I am in agreement with the idea that “America is the last best hope” for the world, in many ways. The truth is, we have to contend with people on the other side of political debate! Even if you get elected to office (no, I am not running for anything) you can be pretty certain that the voters are going to send you a bunch of people that disagree vehemently with you to work with.
My views tend to be pretty conservative (probably an understatement), but I live with liberals and libertarians, and Ron Paulians and “moderates” (left-leaners with some old fashioned values?)
When I vote, I am determined to vote out as much “secular humanist” and “religious humanist” and “socialist” stuff as possible. But in the end, if the American People keep accepting this stuff, I am determined to live with, attempt to work with, and recognize the “Created in God’s image”ness of everyone.
I am also determined to find truth, promote truth, and strive to understand and live out the ideas of Christian Freedom and all it’s implications.
God Bless!
ThirstyJon
And still Jon won’t concede a point. (Ok, one small one. The squiggly lines are called “Tildes” (TILL-dees). They mean “Approximately” in some technical writing. They also make handy page breaks).
One more rebuttal:
The inspectors were inspecting, and not finding anything, then they had to get out of the way or get bombed. You know why they weren’t finding anything? ’cause there was nothing to find. They were running out of places to look, and pretty soon would have “verified that there were no WMD’s”, which is why things started in such a rush.
I’m not saying the US military targeted civilians, but there has been an enormous loss of civilian life in Iraq since the invasion for a lot of reasons. Here’s a few:
Smart bombs – ain’t, at least not all the time.
Unemployed soldiers don’t protect anybody, and may even join the militia. Maybe CPA shouldn’t have fired them.
Unemployed policemen don’t protect anybody, and may even join the militia. Maybe CPA shouldn’t have fired them.
Private security contractors do not blow car horns, they’ve found that bursts of M-60 fire are more effective.
Anywho, whatever the individual causes, there has been enormous loss of civilian life since the invasion, which would not have happened if the invasion had not happened.
You’ve never stated your age, but I suspect I’m a little older than you are, I remember Libya/Qadaffi’s saber rattling 20-25 years ago. As a matter of fact, I crossed his “Line of Death” myself on an Amphibious Assault Ship. He was just as scary as Hussein, but as 9/11 hadn’t happened yet, the USA was still thinking semi-rationally – not yet wetting ourselves in fear and looking for somebody to bomb. So – how did we deal with Qadaffi? (You’ll like this, I’m going to praise a Republican President). Ronald Reagan had the good sense to engage him, carrot & stick diplomacy. A little carrot, a little stick, a little sanction, a little negotiation. At this time, relations with Libya are normalized, and they’ve been voted to a term on the UN security council. Colonel Qadafi enjoys a good terrorist hangin’ as much as the next guy, and generally runs one of the more progressive, modern and successful countries in that part of the world.
My belief is that Iraq could have and should have been engaged and handled like Libya, with a much more successful outcome and very little if any loss of life. Instead of a shooting gallery and al Qaeda haven (there was no al Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion) we might have had an ally in the GWOT.
Now tell me why I’m wrong.
Howdy Casper!
Thanks for not giving up on me!
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The inspectors. I don’t know Casper. Saddam was messing with the inspectors for 12 years. When would it have become time to say “enough?”
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Civilian Casualties. This is never ok. I don’t like it when they are referred to as “collateral damage.” If it were my loved one killed, no amount of “this just happens in war” would ever comfort me. I am not judging our military here. I know it can be unavoidable at times, but it is never ok.
I wonder, how many of the civilian casualties were caused directly by the Coalition? Directly meaning by Coalition bombs, Coalition soldiers, etc. – as opposed to being killed by Insurgents, Al-Qaeda, Sunni-Shiite fighting, etc.????
I wonder how often when Coalition bombs or bullets killed civilians was it a deliberate attempt by the Bad Guys to cause Civilian Casualties?
This has no bearing on how tragic the loss of life is, but it does have bearing on who is responsible.
I also wonder (and I am serious here, I am not saying this flippantly) how many lives may have been saved if we had not confronted Germany, Japan, and Italy? I am not trying to pull the “Hitler Card” here. This was a serious consideration that I thought through when deciding whether or not to support the war.
Is it just about math here? Would fewer have died if we’d let the Nazis run their course?
We’ll never know, because they were confronted and stopped. At great human cost. Maybe they would have killed more if they had been allowed to do their thing and the world stayed uninvolved, maybe not.
Maybe if Churchill had been listened to Hitler would have been stopped before it escalated!
If that had happened Churchill would probably be considered a bad guy who launched an “aggressive war” to this day. I don’t know. Maybe he’d still be a hero.
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I remember Libya and the line of death. I never crossed it personally. (I was delivering my Paper Route at the time.)
Actually, the conflict with Libya and the bombing of Tripoli were key events in drawing me into a desire to understand Politics and World Events. And I’ll admit it – you were there, I watched it on TV.
Basically, you are presenting an alternative strategy. I don’t know if there was a better strategy available to George W. Bush or not. History will tell. I do not deny the possibility that mistakes could have greatly increased the tragedy in Iraq. Frankly, the details of military and political strategy in a situation such as this are a little beyond my understanding. I feel a bit overwhelmed at times.
That is one of the reasons I focus on principle and whether or not the Iraq war is just and winnable.
Should they have used more troops at the start? My childhood dream of attending West Point never happened and I am unqualified to judge. I don’t know if there was a better military strategy available.
Could things have been done in such a way as to obtain Certainty that Iraq had no WMDs without invading? I don’t know. I watched it all on TV (eating an occasional Cheeto) for 12 years. I was watching it before George W. was President. It didn’t look like it was getting resolved to me. 12 years.
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Current Events in Libya. I wonder. Would Moammar have given up his own WMDs without the invasion of Iraq? I remember him becoming nice all of a sudden when he saw American Troops on the ground in Iraq.
Hans Blix:
Libya agrees to get rid of WMDs: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/19/bush.libya/index.html
More from Hans Blix: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/20/libya.blix/index.html
Ok, this is like a full-on post now. Time for me to go to bed.
God Bless!
ThirstyJon
P.S. I am working on a discussion forum to add to Freedomthirst.com. I think that will be a more powerful tool for discussions such as this. We are way off topic (although still relevant to “Veterans”) on this post!
No problem for now, I don’t have anywhere else to host this conversation.
I am looking forward to your discussion Forum