Here is a quote from Ronald Reagan courtesy of PatriotPost.us:
“How can limited government and fiscal restraint be equated with lack of compassion for the poor? How can a tax break that puts a little more money in the weekly paychecks of working people be seen as an attack on the needy? Since when do we in America believe that our society is made up of two diametrically opposed classes—one rich, one poor—both in a permanent state of conflict and neither able to get ahead except at the expense of the other? Since when do we in America accept this alien and discredited theory of social and class warfare? Since when do we in America endorse the politics of envy and division?†—Ronald Reagan
“”Since when do we in America believe that our society is made up of two diametrically opposed classes—one rich, one poor—both in a permanent state of conflict and neither able to get ahead except at the expense of the other?””
Ever heard of “Robber Barons”?
The class war is real, and it is endless, though it only gets called “Class Warfare” when some foolish member of the lower classes tries to fight back a little. The rich declared class warfare on the poor eons ago, though they’ll deny it to their dying breath. They use their money and influence to lobby endlessly for a lower tax burden on themselves. It has now gotten to the point that a trust fund baby who lives on interest and dividends pays 10 or 15% of their income in taxes and a working person pays closer to 50%.
Does that sound like justice to you? All an accident? Not an intentional ploy by wealthy people to push the burden of paying for the society we live in onto the shoulders of those less able to pay it?
CEO pay jumping by leaps and bounds while real wages for working people have been falling for 20 years. Larry Ellison retires from Exxon with a 480 Million dollar pension, and the minimum wage was stuck at $5.15 an hour for 12 years.
Yeah, class warfare’s a myth.
Wow Casper, you sound like a genuine conspiracy theorist here. Who are “they?”
🙂
ThirstyJon
I sound like what you expect to hear from me Jon.
“They” would be the top 1% that have amassed 40% of the wealth in the USA, and those near that level. “They” lobby government for ever lower taxes – especially on income at upper levels, capital gains, stock “earnings” and other such un-earned income. Do you deny this? Do you claim that well off people do not lobby for lower taxes?
I’m a working guy – not paycheck to paycheck, but definitely working class. When I add up all of the taxes that I pay, it gets close to 50%. The top 1% on the other hand are barely dented by the non-progressive taxes that eat me alive (SSA, Sales, Vehicle registrations, real estate). Then they hire a team of attack accountants to hide and finagle with their income, and they wind up paying 15% gross or less. Some don’t pay anything at all.
SO I go in the shop and sweat for $50 thousand in a year, and half ends up in the government coffer. Meanwhile, Mr. Astor pulls in $50 Million from investment of inherited wealth, and he pays 10%. Do you deny this? Do you claim that I somehow benefit more from than Mr. Astor from law enforcement and infrastructure and defense and all of the other things that taxes pay for?
That’s your class war, and if you have to work for a living you’ve been on the losing end for a long time.
My mistake on the Exxon guy BTW – Not Larry Ellison, his name is Lee Raymond. Can you seriously with a straight face claim that this man “earned” a half billion dollar pension?
~~~~~~~~
Going on vacation Jon, so I’ll leave you alone for a while. Happy Easter. We’re going to eat the Swieconka (polish “blessed food”) with the wife’s fam. C’ya.
Casper, have a great vacation! 🙂
When you get back:
I personally am not concerned how rich someone else gets. I am not worried if 1% have 40% of the wealth. Especially if that 1% happens to be good at making the whole pie much bigger.
I certainly don’t fit in that 1%. Not at all. If I did, I would certainly lobby for lower taxes on my money.
Gee. That’s funny. I would push for lower taxes on my income now, even though I don’t have much.
Lower taxes for EVERYONE. That is my vote.
It is full-on evil that you are paying 50% of your income to the government. That is oppressive and wrong. No Income tax at all is preferable; but if we must have one, how about if we commit to the TOTAL income tax on any individual for both federal and state taxes being less than 10% for EVERYONE? Taxes should at least be less than the traditional amount that religious people give to God!
And I don’t doubt that rich people oppress poor people. It has always been so. That still doesn’t justify stealing from one person to “help” another through tax rates of – shall we say – 50%.
You shouldn’t be paying 50%, and neither should the billionaire.
I submit to you that viewing the rich and the poor as a class war will make a slave out of you and a slave out of everyone. It is in your head.
When I have children, I want them to know how to be wary of the wealthy or the greedy (poor and rich can be greedy). I want them to know how to advance themselves financially so that they are not poor. I want them to respect the property of rich and poor alike. I want them to lend a hand to a fellow human being in need. I want them to systematically work to give everyone who will take the helping hand a chance to leave poverty behind.
I do not want them to inherit a world where they are paying 50% of their money to taxes! That is not freedom.
🙂
ThirstyJon
P.S. If you pay 50% of 50 grand, and Mr. Aston pays 10% of 1 million, who is paying for more of the infrastructure, law enforcement and defense that you are both benefiting from? Hmmmm…
You’re right John,,, The billionaire and I should pay exactly the same.
I drive to work on the public roads, close to 15,000 miles a year, so I derive my $50 thousand a year by using public highways.
Mr. Astor owns a big chunk of UPS, and his trucks use the public roads, 150,000,000 miles a year. He uses the public highways to make $50,000,000,000 a year.
So we should each kick in $600 a year for new asphalt,,, gotcha.
Hey Casper, you should buy into UPS as well. You are able to do so. If you are wise you might end up as wealthy as Mr. Astor, and I for one won’t support any system that would disallow you from trying. 🙂
ThirstyJon
Who said anything about making it illegal to invest money?
I propose that when one makes a profit, he does it within a framework that we call “Society”. Society is made up of lots of stuff – people, facilities, infrastructure, birds bees flowers trees. Lots of stuff within the “society” costs money.
Now here’s one of about a jillion places that you and I differ. You seem to believe that everyone should contribute to pay for the maintenance of “society” equally. You inherited $12Jillion? Your tax is $9 to pay for highways. You were born a crack baby and grew up in the streets and now live in a cardboard box? Your tax is $9 to pay for highways,,, This is what I hear from you Jon.
My point of view is that when one reaps a benefit within society, one should chip some back in to support that society PROPORTIONAL TO THE PROFIT ONE HAS GAINED. The rich man has profited more, he should pay more.
You didn’t answer my earlier question. Do you really believe that Lee Raymond EARNED a $400million plus retirement package? Is anyone on earth really that “wise”?
Come on,,,
(Vacation was lovely BTW).
Casper,
1) Switch “disallow” with “hinder” in my previous statement. It is a better word for my purpose.
2) How about we just eliminate the income tax alltogether? Use a fuel tax and sales tax on vehicles, vehicle services etc. to pay for the roads. The one who uses it more will then pay more.
3) If we go down the road where you and I (or government) is deciding who earned what, we are heading towards a controlled society. I propose that the governmnet has no say in who “earned” what. The question about whether or not Lee Raymond’s pay is a legitimate amount or not is irrelevant to government.
ThirstyJon
P.S. Glad you had a great vacation. 🙂
Remarks in red are from ThirstyJon
The role of government is to make sure that everybody plays fair, no? (That is an oversimplification. Government is more about protecting property, including the property one has over one’s physical person, one’s conscience, etc.) If there are only 2 gas stations in a small town in Montana, the nearest other town is 200 miles away, and the 2 owners agree that they will sell their gas for double the market rate – bilk their neighbors – and get rich, that’s illegal. It’s called price fixing, and it’s against the law. The law was written so that supply and demand and market competition will do what they’re supposed to do and deliver better value to the customer.
Now if this “magic of the marketplace” that you […]believe in so fervently was working, Exxon would have had to trim costs in order to compete with Shell-Mobil-BP-Etc, and Raymond would have to make do with a healthy pension like everyone else in his league. (Who decides what “his league” is?)
$15 billion a quarter profits are proof that the “marketplace” is broken. –Why is that “proof” Casper? We are going down the wrong road if we are concerned about people having too much. Who decides what is too much? Why not focus on helping people who don’t have enough? (And if all the effort put into trying to force a socialist or semi-socialist economy on the world were put directly into helping the needy -instead of government programs- I think a lot of good could be done) Let’s not do it with government or any forced re-distribution of wealth. Let’s do it with generosity and mercy instead.– There is collusion and gouging and the customer is being taken advantage of – just like the residents of that little town in Montana. And President oilman (?????) is not the least interested in doing anything about it. (How scary to think of the President micro-managing the costs of fuel or who makes how much money.)
And the little guy takes it in the shorts again – I paid $4.09 a gallon for diesel this morning. Another front in the class war.
Now tell me how I’m wrong…
::: Recognizing that people tend to look out for their own interest and might not be looking out for yours is wisdom. Viewing this as a “class war” results in a destructive labeling of “rich” against “poor” that will create such a war where there is no need for there to be one. Seeing yourself or others primarily as victims of the rich will only leave yourself and anyone who listens to you as slaves to your own self-view. As long as “they” are out to oppress all of us poor people (in our minds) we cannot be free. — ThirstyJon :::
ThirstyJon’s Response is in Red
They’re not out to “oppress” the poor, they’re out to get rich(er) on the backs of their customers, most of whom happen to be less well off. They’re not evil, just greedy.
So you’re saying that you have no problem with the 2 gas station owners in the remote town bilking their customers – you consider that something they should have the “freedom” to do. Wow – that’s really Thirsty Jon. (I understood you to be creating a fictional example to make a point. If you have any evidence of real criminal activity in Montana I would suggest that you contact the authorities there.)
Ever notice that when you call tech support you get a voice with a foreign accent? Why is that? It’s because you can hire techies in India very cheaply, and business is so competitive nowadays that they need to save that money to be competitive.
If the gasoline business was that competitive (and it certainly should be – there’s a station on every corner and customers comparison shop without getting out of their cars) then the oil companies would have to cut their costs to compete – this is Econ 101 stuff Jon.
A $15 Billion quarter indicates that they have not cut costs as the law of the marketplace dictates they would have to in a true competitive environment. (Making more money than you or anyone else thinks someone should be making is not proof of illegal activity.)
So they are not competing – logically they can’t be. That’s price fixing, and that’s illegal. President Oilman supervises the Attorney General of the USA, and therefore decides which laws will be enforced aggressively and when Uncle Sam will look the other way. I wonder why he hasn’t sicced the Justice Dept. on his campaign contributors?!?! The answer is obvious. (I don’t buy into the “President Oilman” thing and I don’t accept the assertion that President Bush is not having the Justice Dept. enforce the law because some oil companies were campaign contributers. I haven’t seen any sufficient evidence for that assertion, and “they have too much money” is not going to be sufficient evidence.)
I’m not suggesting that the government make any decisions about how much someone can make – that’s a ridiculous strawman that the radical right likes to throw up and then knock down. I’m just suggesting that when the powerful cheat the powerless ILLEGALLY the government should enforce the law. (I’m glad to hear that you are not suggesting that. I am not participating in the building of that alleged strawman. That appeared to me to be where you were coming from. Not only that, but it is possible to have a worldview that sees things that way, even if you don’t actually try to make it so. You appeared to be coming from that perspective.)
The powerful cheat the powerless, the rich (wise, noble, blessed) cheat the poor (dumb,foolish,low-born) – and there’s your class war. (I’ve already expressed my thoughts about why it is not constructive or accurate to view this as a class war previously in this thread of comments. If there is specific evidence of someone or someones acting illegally, it should be pursued. The statement or worldview that it is a “class war” is too sweeping and will promote an attitude that all wealthy folks are evil and all poor folks are oppressed. This is simply not so. I am not wealthy. I know many wealthy people. I don’t know any super-wealthy people. I actually don’t know any wealthy individual who is oppressing any poor person. I have only know them to be kind and generous.)
Again – tell me why I’m wrong.
Further thoughts for Casper:
I have long contemplated my response to the idea of the government working to prevent “unfair business practices” and I confess that I have not yet come to specific conclusions. I have questions about the nature of corporations, the nature of banking, etc.
I do believe that we should maintain a government philosophy that generally avoids intervention in economic affairs such as this. There may be exceptions. Of course, we do not have such a government.
A relative of mine once questioned the very core idea of a “corporation” for example. I have been thinking about it ever since. I am committed to discovering a Christian World View on the subject. I am still not there.
I am telling you these things because I agree that laws against price fixing should be enforced. Where I am incomplete in my thinking and philosophy of government is in what exactly those laws should be. I am working on it but it will probably take me some years. (I want to get it right. I want my children, grandchildren and their children and grandchildren to remain free!)
But then, I am young still. There is still time for learning.
🙂
ThirstyJon