When you think of the future of Christianity, do you see a horrible end of time, or a glorious victory of the church?
Tom at Tom’s Journal had this to say:
Is earth a hopeless place that
Christians should neglect
because “it’s all going to burn anyway?”The few camps that fight and quarrel about, Pre- Trib, Post-Trib, Mid Trib, etc, seems like a childish grade school game played at recess. I have out grown that goofy stuff. As my wife and I attended the Baptist church in our small town, I asked some older brothers about this stuff about Left Behind, etc., and they agreed with me that we THINK that we shall be Raptured up BEFORE the Great Tribulation. But if it doesn’t happen that way– we are still servants and followers of Jesus Christ and will obey and worship Him forever! Duh…. I simple don’t have the time or space to express every word, idea and scripture that it took me 30 some years to absorb. I know how to be SAVED and can explain and share that great thing with any of my readers… and that means your ever lasting life!
This was my response over at his blog:
Does God have a bright future
for His Bride on earth?Hi Tom!
I can certainly relate to the whole “why sweat the small stuff” idea.
I also think that anyone who is a brother or sister in Christ remains so even if we see some things differently. If we are disagreeing, we should remember that it is in the family! 🙂
I used to tell people I was “Pan-Trib” (It’ll all “pan out” in the end.) 🙂
However, I always questioned some of the basic stuff that I was taught about the end times when I was very young. As I have grown the questions have gotten louder and louder in my head and heart.
I began to observe that Christians in general seemed so convinced that everything was going down hill until Jesus returned that they were almost “self-fulfilling” the going down hill part by neglecting their duty to promote revival and reform in the world.
If we are so convinced that there is no hope for society, we’ll just sit back and let it burn.
I submit that this is not consistent with the Character of God.
Of course, I cannot go into the details here (you may find lots of details over at American Vision).
A different way of viewing “the end times” and the second coming of Christ has been unfolding in my life for quite some time. I read about an ever increasing Kingdom of God in the book of Daniel (Daniel 2:29-45). I am taught by Jesus to pray “Your Kingdom Come, Your Will Be Done, on earth as it is in heaven! (Matthew 6:9-15)”
I have begun to see a picture of a victorious church being salt, light, and yeast into every area of human life. Starting with salvation, but flowing out into art, science, law, history, labor, creativity, love, etc.
God gave us dominion over everything in the earth.
My “pan-trib” philosophy did not stand up. Our view of the end times does matter (not in the “salvific” sense). It motivates us either to withdraw from or engage and conquer (with humility) societies issues.
I submit that it would be well worth your time to carefully investigate some of the stuff that Gary Demar and company over at American Vision are teaching.
Whatever you do, brothers and sisters in Christ remain brothers and sisters in Christ!
God Bless Your Socks Off!
I'll come at you slowly, as to not let this dissolve into a petty "he exists", "no he doesn't" argument.
I believe that the time of "religion" is nearly at an end. I give Christianity another 120 years. Why? Because that's how long they give themselves. The Christian faith is based around an astrological phenomenon where the Earth wiggles around on its axis – giving us a different perspective of the universe every 2120 years. We call these "ages". In the Bible, Jesus told man-kind to look for a man baring water to be our next saviour. This is a reference to the zodiac sign of Aquarius – a man holding a bucket of water. Even Jesus knew Christians would eventually fall – as will all religions.
Oh, and just fyi, the story of Moses coming down from the mountain to find everyone devoted to a golden bull/cow statue is another reference to the age that preceded the one we're in now – Taurus. Moses' symbolic gesture of commanding everyone to kill themselves in a reference to the ending of the Taurus age, and the beginning of the current age (the name of which escapes me at the moment)
Science, logic, technology and facts will soon drown organised religion. And not a moment too soon.
Hello Thomasbobs, welcome to Freedomthirst.
Interesting thoughts.
Actually, Christianity pretty clearly teaches that "the Kingdoms of this World will become the Kingdoms of our God" and Jesus will return here and judge all men.
I give Christianity another…. Well, forever!
🙂
Let's just take the"Rapture" equation out of the picture for a while, please. Would or should it change our attitude or our love for God and the Bible?? Philippians 1:21 says, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." If the Lord doesn't come before I die–SO WHAT? We ought to not be a 'fair weather Christians' and there is no option for me but Salvation, and "Heaven is my Home" –one way or another. What gets me is that people always seem to flock around some great, mighty human who has a strong opinion/ web site— but the 'followers' of his web site cannot explain things on their own. If this subject matter is so complicated and hard to understand, then I have got to wonder, and the 'Camp Followers' are coming out of the wood work…LOL, along with hate mail.
If I am in error, I will be corrected in kindness by the Lord, thru His Word– not some human telling me to 'go to a particular web site that is popular or in vogue.
Don't be afraid to use my personal email address, unless you prefer this circus blood sport forum.
Tom S
[Email Address Deleted to Prevent Spam to Tom]
Hi Tom!
Sorry to hear that you have been receiving hate mail. That is unfortunate.
I don't know anything about "Camp Followers." My ideas are my own (or actually, they are from a long Bible and relating to God process); although I find some of the conversations over at AmericanVision to be refreshing. Most people aren't thinking about these things.
I doubt that anyone is "flocking around" the American Vision folks. I only suggested that site because I assumed that you knew them, because I first saw you in a discussion with Gary. That's his ministry you know.
The ideas aren't so hard to understand, accept that they go against the popular pre-millenial dispensationalist position. It is hard to undo the damage someone has undergone after thinking the same thing for years and years! Sometimes it is easier to say "here is a book that comprehensively covers this position" than to keep trying to explain it over and over and over again to someone who is coming from a basic worldview involving an opposing position.
I understand that this topic doesn't matter in terms of whether or not you are going to heaven, or in terms of whether or not the Body of Christ can fellowship with one another, but I am increasingly convinced that it is of vital importance as to how we will live our daily lives now!
So… I can't ignore the "rapture" fad that has overtaken my countryman. I believe this kind of escapism is paralyzing the Christian Church in America. I also believe it does affect one's love for God, because if one is loving a God that does not love excellence, beauty, reform, and Christian Living in this world, one is not fully loving God!
By the way, you might want to consider not posting your email address publicly like that. Robots will scrape it up and send you all kinds of interesting emails that you probably don't want to receive. 🙂 If you want me to remove it, just let me know. You can contact me at http://freedomthirst.com/contact/
God Bless!
My belief about end times falls in line with what the Catholic catechism states, and I believe Christians will go through the tribulation. However, being Baptist most of my life, I'm quite familiar with the whole, pretrib views.
However, two things to remember. #1 – God's word says no-one knows the day and time of His coming. He told us to watch & pray.
#2 – He told us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Like you, I find too many Christians, who do not care what is happening in our world because they feel that it is no use and God is coming soon anyway. It could be another 1000 years or another day (2 Peter 3 – With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance).
Thank you for the thoughts.
FaithfulThoughtSpot @ wordpress
Bingo and Amen on your two points!
And I agree whole heartedly that we should be prepared for Jesus to return now, or in a thousand years!
It's like the parable of the ten virgins. Five had trouble because they weren't prepared for a long wait! (Matt 25:1-13)
God Bless!