Here is yet another comment I posted over at CNN.com in response to an article about Barack Obama stating that Republicans don’t own “faith.”
It does not matter what “faith” a person claims to be a part of. It matters what policies one advances. It matters what character a candidate lives.
On Social and Moral policies regarding abortion, marriage, and education, the Republican Party has often attracted better candidates.
I will continue to vote for candidates who oppose the slaughter of innocent children through abortion. I will continue to support candidates who stand against the agenda to force Americans to acknowledge “gay” marriage via the law.
I will also continue to stand against candidates who advance a socialistic like agenda that threatens the right to private property and basic freedom. High taxes, oppressive big government, and lots of regulation are all evils that we need to stand against.
When God made a country (ancient Israel) there was no king until His people insisted on having one. I think God is into freedom from oppressive government. Socialism doesn’t fit.
The Democratic party is often socialistic in its views. I don’t buy it.
There is nothing “Holy” about the Republican party. But for as long as a third party is unable to rise up to real prominence, and for as long as the Democratic party is in the hands of dangerous socialist and socially immoral thinkers, I will be voting most of the time as a Republican. Of course, there will be exceptions only when the Democrat who is running opposes abortion being legal, opposes the “gay” marriage agenda, and opposes oppressive big-tax and high regulation government.
ThirstyJon
freedomthirst.com
Although Mr. Obama makes many points in his discourses, he still hasen’t proven to me that he would be the best candidate to protect the rights of the most vulnerable (unborn, elderly…) and affirm the very basic of the US foundation. In a speech given at the Call to Renewall Conference June 28, 2006, as he addressed the link between politics and religion, Mr. Obama raises some issues that can be quite worrisome if elected (re. his stance on those who use religion to come to their ends). Her goes on…”I said that we live in a pluralistic society, that I can’t impose my own religious views on another, that I was running to be the U.S. Senator of Illinois and not the Minister of Illinois”. The rest of the article can be read on http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060628-call_to_renewal_1/index.php
Is it important for a candidate to uphold biblical values? I believe so because what one stands for in life will certainly be accountable to those who have chosen him/her to represnet the mass.
Define “Biblical values” please.
Last time you guys elected a guy who shared your biblical values he attacked and invaded a country that hadn’t attacked us and posed no threat to us.
The tally so far is about 4,000 of ours dead, another 25,000 of ours wounded. Plus 650,000 of theirs dead and unknowable numbers of wounded.
Do this sound like something Jesus would do to you?
About the abortion debate – here’s the thing. Abortion will never go away, for a couple of reasons.
1. Rich white republicans want their daughters to be able to get out of trouble too.
2. It’s too great a herding tool for the Repubs to use on you guys.
Think about it. Republican congress since 1994, Republican President since 2000, solidly conservative supreme court ever since Alito went in. If they really wanted to strike down Roe v. Wade and restrict abortion they could have done it. They’re not going to do it, because what would they use to herd you guys next time?
Your thought?
Response to Casper:
I am aware of the danger of any Republican using the abortion issue as a tool to “herd.” That is why they have to not only state anti-abortion and pro-life positions to get my attention, but they also must act on it.
If a candidate displays that they are truly opposed to the Supreme C0urt Decision (Roe vs. Wade) that made up a fictional right to an abortion, I will consider them whether they go as far in action as I would or not.
I would consider such a person regardless of their party affiliation. I have no loyalty to the Republican party. It is just that, at least in the town/county/state where I vote, the Republican candidate is more often then not the better choice on that issue.
🙂
ThirstyJon
Lots to work with here, so I'll just pick 2.
First – you said: Virginity Pledges, etc. have not caused one abortion. Not even one. What in the world are you talking about on that one?
Oh yes they have. Read this from the American Journal of Sociology ( http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJS/journal/issu… ).
"Since 1993, in response to a movement sponsored by the Southern Baptist Church, over 2.5 million adolescents have taken public "virginity" pledges, in which they promise to abstain from sex until marriage. This paper explores the effect of those pledges on the transition to first intercourse. Adolescents who pledge are much less likely to have intercourse than adolescents who do not pledge. The delay effect is substantial. On the other hand, the pledge does not work for adolescents at all ages. Second, pledging delays intercourse only in contexts where there are some, but not too many, pledgers. The pledge works because it is embedded in an identity movement. Consequently, the pledge identity is meaningful only in contexts where it is at least partially nonnormative. Consequences of pledging are explored for those who break their promise. Promise breakers are less likely than others to use contraception at first intercourse."
Less likely to use contraception, hmmmm. What do you figure that leads to? Or do you know more about this than the Sociologists and Social Workers that work up to their elbows in this everyday.
There was no accusation against your president, there's just a statement of fact. (he isn't my president. He might've been, but he's been spitting on me and mine for 7 years, and he's a war criminal, so no dice).
Now about your President the war criminal, here's a little snippet from the Nuremburg Standard, Article 6:
"CRIMES AGAINST PEACE: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression,"
(Here's a link, in case you want to break out of your radical rightist shell and actually learn something – http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/imtcon… (Or do you already know more about this than the faculty of Yale Law?)).
A war of aggression is the ultimate war crime, in that it contains and initiates all the other crimes. Your boy lied lied lied about WMD, links to Al Qaeda, etc. etc. and he chose, CHOSE, to initiate a war of aggression against a country that hadn't attacked us. Now close to a million people (not fetuses, breathing people) are dead. And that makes him a war criminal.
When I say "You people" I mean "Conservatives", usually Republican. You elected him, and he's turned out to be the worst president in history. Congratulations.
Nope, the Repub is not, he/she is just better at BS’ing you that they are. You’re “aware of the danger”, and yet you fall for it again and again. It’s sad, you’re like battered wives. “He said he’s sorry”, “He said it’ll be different this time”.
What the Repub actually is better at is causing more abortions with their “Virginity Pledges” and “Abstinence Only Sex Ed” (How’s that for an oxymoron?) and cutting funding for programs that distribute prophylaxis and other family planning materials.
Here’s a fact, you cannot unring a bell. The abortion procedure is well defined and well understood and a large percentage of the american people consider it something they have a right to get if they want it. The 25% on the radical right that want to force their will on the rest of us are just trying to prove Sinclair Lewis right.
“When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”
– Sinclair Lewis
Do you really think that we like abortion? Do you really think that we’re happy when a young woman has this done? That young Liberal girls bet preggers just for the joy of hopping up on that table? Please answer the question, ’cause I really want to know.
It’s not going to happen you know. Abortion will never go away, ’cause people want it and you can’t unring a bell. Go ahead and call me names and tell me why I’m wrong, and then go pray on it really hard and vote for another sheepherder and just generally do what you need to do to get through the day. But at the end of the day these kids are still going to be able to get an abortion if they want one, and there’s nothing you and the rest of the brownshirts can do about it.
Hey Jon – How come you didn’t respond to my proclamation that you people “elected” a guy that meets the Nuremburg Standard (written by American attorneys) of “War Criminal”.
Twice.
XOXO
Casper
And remember, Lies make baby Jesus cry.
C
Response to Casper:
I am unwilling to lump all Republicans (or all Democrats) in one category. Unless you intend to do a lot of work, you will not be able to prove that all Republicans are deceiving pro-lifers about their position.
By the way, I did not vote for Bill Clinton, but “we” elected him as president. I count myself as an American for better or for worse.
I am not sure who “you people” are that elected the current president. There were a LOT of votes.
Virginity Pledges, etc. have not caused one abortion. Not even one. What in the world are you talking about on that one?
I am an optimist about the inevitable ending of abortion. No one believed William Wilberforce would succeed in outlawing slavery.
One day the slaughter of innocent children will be looked back on as a great evil of history’s past, just like the West looks on slavery now. (Although slavery is alive and well in other parts of the world.)
The slavery “bell” was “unrung.”
As far as accusations against our president. I don’t know what you are talking about, so I cannot respond.
🙂
Jesus is no longer a baby. He is alive and well and fully adult. I look forward to His return!
ThirstyJon
And you didn’t answer my question,
“”Do you really think that we like abortion? Do you really think that we’re happy when a young woman has this done? That young Liberal girls bet preggers just for the joy of hopping up on that table?””
Well?
Casper,
And we still make Jesus cry with all our no nonsense (or should I say politically correct)acceptance of what is contrary to God’s teaching. You talk about abortion? Ask women who were left with post tromatic abortions and they will tell you that they were NOT advised on all the possibilities. Are you kidding me – Planned Parenthood will certainly not brag about the possibility of having your baby adopted when they can make billions and billions of dollars every year. For the means supplied to avoid becoming pregnant, it certainly does not teach our kids to respect themselves and keep themselves “entire” for the one God has picked to share the rest of their lives with. I work in the school system and this attitude on our government’s part to try new avenues to accomodate our kids is making a lot more damage than good, even at grade level school (as young as gr. 3-4). I find that very scary. The new vaccine that is to enter our schools very shortly is another example of poor judgment. And yes! I do think that some girls just like taking risks until the doomed day…Unfortunately, they do not like to live with the consequences and chose the easy way out – not realizing that some day they will face an unearthly judgment.
Maranatha!!!
Response to Casper:
1. I couldn’t read the article on virginity pledges causing abortion you referred to because it required a login. I don’t have one and don’t need anymore.
However, to preform an abortion in this nation requires participation from the mother and a doctor, and has nothing to do with a virginity pledge. Each individual is responsible for his or her own actions. There is no link in terms of responsibility between promoting abstinence until marriage and that somehow “causing” abortions. Sorry.
2. The Iraq war was not a war of aggression. Saddam Hussein aggressively attacked Kuwait. The U.S. and its allies, for whatever reasons, chose to stop him. This resulted in agreements to get rid of WMDs and prove they were gone. The Hussein government did not cooperate with providing sufficient proof. The burden of proof was on them, and they did not comply.
It is legit to discuss whether or not it was the best strategy to invade Iraq, but it was not a war of aggression. It merely enforced the things agreed upon at the end of the first gulf war. Sorry again.
🙂
ThirstyJon
Let’s suppose that you and I are standing on a sidewalk next to a busy street – and you are blind. You say, “Casper, my trusted friend, is it safe to cross the street?”. I reply “Yes Jonathan, it is safe, have a pleasant journey across the street”. So you step out to cross the street, and promptly get hit by the crosstown bus.
Would I be right to say to you, as you lay dying – “Jonathan, my longtime compatriot, it takes two for a pedestrian to get hit by a bus. It takes a pedestrian and a bus driver. I was merely standing on the sidewalk. Have a nice afterlife. Can I have your stuff?”.??? Would that be cool? Would that be accurate?
Obviously not. Your logic is flawed in this case, just like your other case in which you tell young kids “Ignore the acute hormones coursing through your ripe 16 year old body screaming BREED! BREED! BREED!. Just think of Jesus and everything will be Ok”. Guess what, everything will not be Ok. This doesn’t work, and it has never worked.
Premarital sex is one of the endless constants in human history. 100 years ago young kids got married when the girl got pregnant, and then if they didn’t “learn to love each other” they lived out lives of quiet misery because divorce was unthinkable. 50 years ago young kids got married when the girl got pregnant, and then if they didn’t “learn to love each other” they later got divorced. This is one of the reasons for the enormous divorce rates that peaked in the 70’s. Nowadays when a young girl gets pregnant she has more choices. She might marry the father, she might give the baby up for adoption (these 2 are my favorites), she may raise the child herself as a “single mom”, (the 3rd best choice) or she may have an abortion.
Nobody really wants that abortion – not even we pro-choicers. We wish the kid had never gotten pregnant in the first place.
This is the wierd part about the abortion debate, Choicers and the Lifers are very close to the same page. We both wish to stop unwanted teen pregnancy and the desolation that it brings. The abortions, the dependence on welfare, the casual bastardy and fatherlessness that is bad for the moms and the kids, we both want it to stop. We just disagree on how to go about it. My side advocates education and prevention and adoption, and failing that we hold abortion to be a last resort option. Your side says “Just Say No”, which makes sense because it’s been such a successful tactic in the war on drugs. (NOT!).
Anywho – the research shows that in the aggregate, while many kids who take these abstinence pledges do not remain abstinent very long (sorry, they just don’t, and that’s not just me and my prayer group talking). They do tend to wait longer before first intercourse – but when they do slip off the wagon they do it without protection. Is this the goal? Slightly later but unprotected sex?
It just doesn’t work, and the numbers prove it. Wishing won’t make it so. Sorry.
Like the blind man on the street corner, kids don’t know what’s going on. They’re young, they’re impressionable, they’re inexperienced, they’re kids. As adults, it’s out job to guide them. Guidance can take many forms – and frankly, if you want to tell your kids to never think about their “dirty parts” that’s your choice, and good luck with it. But leave my kids the H#ll alone. (Mine are 18F and 17M BTW, doing very well thank you, great kids).
About your feckless leader. Shortly before the invasion, Bush told the inspectors to get out for their own safety. They were there, and they were inspecting. They weren’t finding anything, because there was nothing to be found.
Tell me this. In January of 2003, were you laying awake at night, trembling with fear that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi army were about to attack America? Did you really think this nimrod had the Motive, the Means and the Opportunity to carry out a realistic attack on the United States of America?
Enforcing UN resolutions. Interesting tack for you to take. When do you figure we’ll be attacking Israel to enforce the resolution demanding that they get out of the occupied territories? The Chinese are under UN resolution over human rights issues, let’s invade them. Shall we invade the USA for it’s obvious flaunting of the Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty? (Oh,, wait,,). When did we become the world’s cop?
At the end of the day, the fact is that there was no good reason to invade Iraq. A country that never attacked us, had no means of attacking us, and never supported those that did. That makes this sad little fiasco a war of aggression, and your boy a war criminal.
I’d bet my DD-214 on it. How about you?
Response to Casper:
Part 1)
A blind person crossing the street… A woman getting an abortion. Hmm. Yes, let’s make sure the woman knows and clearly understands what stage of development the baby is at and that she is allowing a human life, her child, to be killed. Full information is very important.
I want to a small, moneyless private Christian school when I was younger. We received a very quality “sex education.” Mostly through books that the school sent home and we were able to discuss with our parents. I also read good stuff from James Dobson.
I understood how pregnancy happened and how diseases were spread. I understood how a condom reduces chances of both pregnancy and disease, but how it prevents neither.
I learned things about coping with hormones and emotions.
I learned about God’s highest plan for the best sex possible, within marriage, and was invited to wait until marriage to engage in sex.
This is the education I would wish on all children.
I would also like to see opportunities for young people to be healed on the inside so that the emotional forces driving them to reckless sex have a chance to be dealt with.
Sexual desire is a good thing. We are all responsible for what we do with it.
Every single individual involved with an abortion is responsible for that choice.
And telling people the benefits of waiting until marriage has not caused one abortion. Not even one. Never. It never will. I find the connection ridiculous and unbelievable.
Part 2)
Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait. The free world came to Kuwait’s defense and demanded the aggressor stop and also rid itself of WMDs. The burden of proof was placed on Saddam and Company to prove they were gone. They did not comply.
Whether or not attacking was a good choice is debatable.
Whether or not it is best for the U.S. and it’s allies to act as the world’s police is an excellent and important discussion. I personally don’t want anything to do with being the world’s police.
Yet you still have not proven that the war against Iraq was a war of aggression.
You have not proven that George Bush is a war criminal. Sorry.
🙂
ThirstyJon
“I understood how a condom reduces chances of both pregnancy and disease, but how it prevents neither.”
Yes, it reduces chances by a mere 98 + %. Only God is perfect, and this is a much higher percentage than “just say no”.
I will agree with you that telling people the benefits of waiting until marriage has never caused an abortion, that’s true. The problem is that most people telling their kids that aren’t telling their kids anything else. Now if you personally have been able to use the training you received to avoid sex, and you are happy about this, then good for you. I’m glad it works for you (so far). What percentage of your peers do you think have had equal success? Do you think it’s 98%? Do you think 2% of your peers having unprotected sex is a good idea? Unprotected sex is all they know to have, because nobody told them the other possibilities, and they wind up on the table. That’s just how it is, and the statistics prove it.
It does sound like you had a relatively decent, if somewhat slanted, schooling in sex ed. If everyone got this it would not be so bad. The issue is that so many advocate abstinence ONLY, with no discussion of anything else. A certain percentage of teens will have sex no matter what you do. Doesn’t it make sense to teach them how to pretect themselves?
About the president that you defend while he laughs at you ( look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/14/60minutes/main2089778.shtml ). If we’re going to discuss a war of aggression, let’s first define the term:
“Waging a war of aggression is a crime under customary international law and refers to any war not out of self-defense or sanctioned by Article 51 of the UN Charter”.
Ok, that seems clear enough.
Well obviously Iraq was not self defense, in that we were not attacked by Iraq, and had no reason to believe that we would be attacked by Iraq. Let’s see what Article 51 says:
Article 51 – Security Council not impair rights of member states
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
There’s that “right of self defense” language again.
Now listen closely, please. There are only 2 ways that a nation goes to war. Either it is attacked, making it’s operations defensive in nature and therefore legal, or it attacks first, making it’s operations aggressive in nature and therefore not sanctioned by international law. The initiation of such a war is a war crime under international law, under the Geneva accords and under the Nuremberg Principles. Congress voted to give the Pretzeldent authority to do what he wanted, which was stupid – but GWB gave the order. Again, He CHOSE to initiate a war against a country that had not attacked us.
Yes, Hussein attacked Kuwait, 12 years before we invaded Iraq this time. (Our previous efforts in Iraq were in defense of an ally and in full concordance with international law BTW.). What has that got to do with our invasion this time. As I just said (but you obviously didn’t read or couldn’t be bothered to fact check) the inspectors were there in compliance with the resolutions, and they were inspecting, in compliance with the resolutions, and they weren’t finding anything. GWB had them leave for their own safety, because he was about to blast the place whether they had anything or not. One more time – He CHOSE to initiate a war against a country that had not attacked us.
You claim James Dobson, interesting. I’ve read his stuff. I’m sorry to hear that you were schooled in the teachings of an advocate of discrimination and child abuse. I’m just now realizing how amazingly “Conservative” you really are. Wow. I’m Ward Cleaver by comparison.
Response to Casper:
I am married without any children at this point. When I do have children I intend to teach them what I have learned.
Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon) is one of the best presentations of sexuality and romance that I have seen. The language is very passionate and romantic. Two of the biggest themes in the book are “Do not waken love before it is time”, and “when it is time drink deeply!” It is clearly talking about sexual and romantic love.
I wasn’t taught “abstinence only.” I was taught “this thing is worth waiting for until marriage.”
It was worth the wait, for certain.
I do not support, however, teaching young people “you cannot be responsible and control yourself anyway so you might as well just use a condom.” There is a grain of truth there. If you are going to be irresponsible or immoral at least attempt to provide bringing a child into the scene.
I would support teaching them everything they need to know to make wise adult decisions about sexuality. This includes the benefits of waiting until marriage and making “birth control” decisions with your spouse.
I know we cannot stop some from choosing sex outside of marriage. But if someone makes that choice, I desire that they have at least been presented with the benefits of waiting!
*****
The effectiveness of a condom is dependent greatly on it’s proper use.
This quote is taken from mayoclinic.com
*****
James Dobson – Discrimination and Child Abuse? I have also read his stuff and have seen neither.
*****
I read the article about the guy from the “faith based initiative” office who has changed his mind about faith and politics.
Some of my thoughts on the role of “faith” in “politics” can be found here.
*****
I still see no connection between the concept of “a war of aggression” and the war in Iraq. As far as I can see the second Iraq war was merely a conclusion of the first and an inevitable outcome if Saddam Hussein refused to cooperate and prove he had no WMDs.
Yes, it reduces chances by a mere 98 + %. Only God is perfect, and this is a much higher percentage than “just say no”.
How can this be a higher percentage than just saying NO – unless the Holy Spirit operates in you…
The problem is that most people telling their kids that aren’t telling their kids anything else.
I for one has instilled those NO values in my kids. Now that they are older, or course they have been put in situations where the temptation was there. They are TEENS!!! but still have managed to resist the temptation and hence risk to alter their future for a moments in time!! You live by biblical principles or you don’t. One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is SELF-CONTROL remember. Some people might have dropped it along the way…
That’s just how it is, and the statistics prove it.
Stats prove it? WOW! how come they never called my home to ask those questions. Also, because our kids are bombarded from every side. Unless they have families that stick together and set ground rules, they will fit right in those stats. We have a policy with our kids here – no dating alone till they are ready, some choice of a partner sometimes is not the right one, and of course, stay free from boundage.
The issue is that so many advocate abstinence ONLY, with no discussion of anything else. A certain percentage of teens will have sex no matter what you do. Doesn’t it make sense to teach them how to protect themselves?
Again, the obvious choice remains the NO WORD. Some will stand up against the current, some will give in and have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives. And besides, even if you protect yourself like you say, what is left of you when you finally meet the right person? Nothing new under the sun…
You claim James Dobson, interesting. I’ve read his stuff. I’m sorry to hear that you were schooled in the teachings of an advocate of discrimination and child abuse. I’m just now realizing how amazingly “Conservative” you really are.
Hum! If you mean discrimination against everything that is contrary to moral values (homosexuality, abortion, persecution and so on) I think it takes a lot of guts today to publicly fight this, especially with the constant threats of judicial pursuits from organizations such as the ACLU, GLAD and the likes. What kind of abuse are your talking about – not the “corrective” methods I hope. (Train up a child in the way he should go and he will never depart from it; or better yet – spare the rod and spoil the child). No wonder this generation is on the way to bankruptcy if it continues in that slant. And yes! There are still a lot of conservatives out there – any problem with that?
To continue in the line of those who believe President Bush should be tried for invading Iraq…
A quick Vote was taken on CNN today:
Should Congress pass a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians genocide?
Yes 33% 1996
No 67% 3977
Total Votes: 5973
WOW! While many believe that the US government should be tried for war crimes for having “invaded” Iraq, ONLY 33% – imagine that THIRTY THREE PERCENT think that the genocide of Armenians should be counted as a crime. I mean, not only those people were invaded, but they were chased out of their country or killed if they did not want to submit/convert to a muslim regime. I know! – one of my friend is Armenian born and most of her family (grandparents and relatives) had to flee at the time because of that. What an upside down world we live in!!!